to talk about how ordinary citizens interact with the justice system. >> i am responsible for what happens. to the peopleport of new jersey that we fell short. ♪ traffic lane closures have become a and -- a national and political issue for chris christie. reactiono get your this morning on "the washington journal." residents, (202) 585-3883. we want to hear from you. we also want to hear from democrats, republicans, and independents.

the numbers are on the screen. if you cannot get through on the phone lines, try social media. is our twitter handle. at can send us an e-mail journal@c-span.org. i am not a bully says the front page. here is the star-ledger out of new work. i was blindsided, says governor christie. pathetic isly news, what they say. his 107 minutes self-serving, self pitying display of contrition was an act in a brazen cover-up that further threatens to unravel his political career.

front page of the daily news. here is the new york post -- ignorance is chris. those are some of the papers in that area and what they say about this this morning. here is the lead editorial from the star-ledger newspaper. no more sarcasm today. at a news conference, the governor was unusual contrite -- unusually contrite but insists he was blindsided yesterday's release of e-mails linking the george washington bridge scandal to his office. it goes on to say that his contrition is the right first step, but it is just the beginning. we need the redacted information in e-mails to be exposed. we need the testimony of the governor's top officials, anduding kelly, stepien

david wildenstein -- wildstein. we need a full accounting from the governor himself. how does a former u.s. attorney give his staff just one hour to come clean? he then ran out to the media to insist none of them were reportersand mocked for even asking about laying closures. thankfully, he is handling the investigation. the true test is how he response to the inquiry now. hide.s he has nothing to if so, he must compel officials to testify and turn over relevant information, including his own e-mails if necessary. neverchristie says he can guarantee a perfect governor's office, but he can promise us a transparent one. that is the new jersey star-ledger out of trenton

editorial this morning. here is the new york post's lead editorial. chris christie confesses, predictably, the reaction from the press was immediate and focused on the wrong questions. his reputation has taken a big hit, not least because people look to christie to challenge the abuse of power at the extent of the public for cheap purposes. likely, the scandal will never fully go away. it is also possible opponents will overplay their hand, especially if nothing emerges to challenge christie's account. that is the new york post. a little bit more from that editorial, americans are used to politicians on both sides of the aisle who have one set of standards for themselves and another for their opponents. on thursday, christie pledged something different.

not how christie handled his presser or what it means for a presidential run, the question is whether he told the truth to his citizens and can show with his actions what taking responsibility means. unloadsyork daily news on governor christie. chris christie's one hour 47 minute self pitying. contrition is a brazen cover-up that threatens to unravel his political career. the governor scoured for words of apology, regret, and played the victim and destroyed the aide who supported a supporting role for the george washington bridge revenge plot. he needed blood.

he needed to express his outrage to the public so he drew it from bridget kelly. did lie, although it seems incredible that anyone anld attempt to deceive intense emergency inquiry. roadkill of kelly while exempting the close pals who were central to the lane closure conspiracy that caused four days worth of gridlock and slowed emergency response in fort lee. the governor gave three truly guilty parties, david wildst and davidbaroni samson passes. concealed, ord, did nothing about the interstate transportation outrage.

took the fifth amendment before christie concluded his sad-a-thon. service.uck or loyal on new york daily news goes to write that the governor and wildstein go back to high school. hadmplied that wildstein been one of the dweebs and he had been one of the cold kids back then. the independent investigation that remains to be done will reveal that he infected the port authority with political thuggery, identify who concocted the lane closure scheme and disclose all the machinations that took place as christie hopes to invade responsibility for screwing tens of thousands of people and

endangering almost as many while he searched for an open lane to the white house. we are going to begin with a call from beverly in north carolina. she is on our democrats line. beverly, go ahead. what do you think about the news conference yesterday? to it and tryened to be fair because i come from new jersey. he lied. he said he gave them an hour to come forward and then he said he sat with them. you can't keep lying. he is known as a bully. i don't think these two people in his office, or the lady, i don't think she would have had the nerve to do this without his acknowledgment. i just don't. i wish him all the luck in the world, but if you are a liar, it comes out.

joining us on the phone is michael simons. were you at the press conference yesterday? --guest: i was in the building watching the press obviously, iut caught a lot of the press conference. it is interesting that one of the things a lot of people are paying attention to today is that when the governor led his go, hechiefs of staff said he was lied to by her, rather than focused on the act of closing the lanes to the george washington bridge.

what we saw yesterday in was that conference, governor chris christie that we saw yesterday at the news conference? guest: i think a lot of people have a view of him that is solely derived from a lot of the youtube videos and everything that is put out. showing the confrontational part of him. he also has, like anyone, a well-rounded figure. side, you didn't see any of that yesterday. to talk about things in personal terms, he tried to relate to people by saying things like -- i finished my morning workout, things like that.

detailso make those that you don't see from a politician. it was kind of classic chris christie. how close is he to the players in this? thet: starting with closest, it will be david samson. he is a former state attorney general under governor mcgreevey in 2002 and 2003. he was the counsel to the governor's first election campaign, was the chairman of his transition committee. four, he is closest

with samson. he went to high school with david wildstein. they don't appear to have been necessarily close. of his connection to this whole thing is that he had been an anonymous website of an editor of the website in new jersey. andn anonymous contributor editor of the website in new jersey. on politicald corruption and got a lot of attention and publicity through the website. between a connection wildstein and christie. baroni was an ally of christie's and ofstate legislature

the four, the least close to him is bridget kelly. she is the deputy chief of staff. who is still employed? being the chairman of the port authority is an unpaid position. he still has that job. , as founder and head of one of the most he stillal law firms, has the position to which christie has appointed him. the other three have lost their jobs. wildstein in december and bridget kelly yesterday. host: what comes next? guest: the state assembly is going to continue its hearings into the matter.

they held a hearing yesterday where david wildstein was called then refused and to answer questions beyond things like state your name and spell it, what town you live in. what was yourd job title of your most recent position, he exercised his fifth amendment right to remain silent. the legislature wound up holding him in contempt. they had a unanimous vote and all of the members said that the assembly rules and state law says that if you are under subpoena, you cannot refuse to answer relevant questions. the rules also say you have prosecutorial immunity. law enforcement cannot use that to build a criminal case.

the advice of legal counsel was otherwise. host: will there be more hearings in new jersey? guest: there will be more hearings in new jersey. they will be calling in wildstein back to answer questions. they want to hear from bridget kelly. bill, who isr from an influential person on the political side. was stripped of his influence by the governor yesterday. he has been forced to withdraw and karen -- consideration will not be an advisor to the republican governors association. a couple to hear from of other people in the governor's office who were named in some of the e-mails. aboutcessarily the ones

and leading up to the execution of what was done at the george washington bridge hommel but , democratsas part of would call it a cover-up, but in the middle of this part of trying to find a way to frame it so was not as damaging. the u.s. attorney's office is looking into it. the port authority asked them to start an investigation. the u.s. senate, transportation committee, they also look into it. this has a long way to go. .ost: michael symons thank you for your time. we appreciate it. guest: thank you for the opportunity. host: north bergen new jersey.

are you a chris christie supporter? caller: sort of. -- sort of.but not 100%. host: did you vote for him when he ran for governor? caller: i did. i thought he was a better candidate. host: go ahead and make your common. -- go ahead and make your comment. caller: could it have been traffic that it was a study and it happened that unfortunately, the people who knew what was about to begin, knowing it was going to cause delays, maybe it was preplanned and these people thought it was funny that it would affect it decided to send an e-mail to laugh about it because it would be affecting a democrat mayor?

i am trying to look at is, could it be possible that it was a traffic study that was going to cause delays. instead of being at retribution, it was a matter of a couple of people inside the team that thought it would be funny, which is not a good thing, and they were making fun of the fact that the fort lee mayer would see back-to-back traffic jams. -- the fort lee mayor would see back-to-back traffic jams. it was going to happen anyway, not something done purposely to create a jam. i thought that would be something they might want to consider. for calling in.

from the wall street journal, management style in spotlight. those that have worked with him described an atmosphere of tight control where victories were rewarded and the fees were to be avoided. such aso crossed him, making negative comments in the media, could find themselves receiving an angry call or being frozen out of the circle. the christie administration is known for discipline. leaks are rare and state commissioners and other top officials are known for staying on message. christieking with administration -- christie's administration have found it to be exceptionally centralized. after hisin, even advisers have issued opinions. clip] i am heartbroken that someone i permitted to be in that circle of trust for the last five years betrayed my trust.

hereld never have come out four or five weeks ago and made a joke about these lane closures. if i ever had an inkling that anyone on my staff would have been so stupid to be involved to notn so deceitful disclose the information of their involvement to me when directly asked by their superior. questionsd -- those were not asked just once. a were asked repeatedly. -- they were asked repeatedly. i take this action today because it is my job. i am responsible for what happens. i am sad to report to the people of new jersey that we fell short.

he fell short of the expectations that we created over the last four years for the type of excellence in government they should expect from this office. christie, i am not a bully is what they say. the new york times has a picture of the press conference and the lead story, very sad christie extends apology enbridge scandal. .ere's the washington times the lead story, christie struggles to save his reputation . the washington times and the washington post lead with the new head coach for the washington redskins. underneath that, there is a picture of chris christie on the front page. steve is calling from tempe, arizona. i thought chris christie did outstanding. he did not give the hillary

clinton to the questioners. what difference does it make? i thought the government was off the mark. we have no proof that he lied. we know obama lied. we know he is a liar because we have proof. think when the press stops giving the hillary clinton excuse to all the people about , it is a bigndals cover-up with all of the obama scandals, but it is a big blowup over a bridge scandal. i am from that area. there is traffic study all over the area. it's not just new jersey. we can go on and on about something that happens all the time, all over that area. the irs scandal, nsa scandal, that is ascandal,

corrupt -- that is why this country is declining. corps is -- under obama. we are going to move on to timothy in new jersey. he is on our democrats line. go ahead. turn down your tv. caller: i am calling up to say that if it was a scandal or laws, they should be investigated and they should be prosecuted. we are not talking about obama. we are talking about an incident that happened in new jersey. a woman's death was possibly caused by lack of emergency care. that is a serious thing. there is no reason not to investigate it to the fullest.

that is my opinion. limbaugh on thursday likened republicans to a bunch voicingbeests for not support for chris christie. have any of the republicans in name only, the moderate republicans, have any republican establishment types come out and said that they support christie? they haven't. this is the thing, this is the thing. republicans, when they get in trouble, it is like a bunch of wildebeests. party, whenlican one of them gets in trouble, nobody steps up to defend them. stand aside and wait and see how it is going to end up because they are afraid to get involved and be tarnished.

that is the exact scenario that christie is finding himself in as he seeks to limit the damage from the bridge closure scandal. independent from front royal, virginia. what do you think about this? good morning. earlier, you showed a newspaper with the girl that got fired and other people that are involved, or whatever. september 12, september 2012, why didn't we see hillary as the person being fired? we see a, why didn't picture of kathleen sebelius getting fired? at least he is taking action. i am not republican, democrat, whatever. another caller said that he voted for christie because he was the lesser of the two evils. it is a shame that we are having to vote that way. we want this one because i didn't want that one in there.

people uphave 30 there for us to vote for. you remove the special interests that when they get into the office they got to pay back favors. if they can limit it to $20 per person in the whole united states, that would help a lot. host: does this affect chris christie nationally? that he isis showing taking action, he is doing something about it. i didn't know that politicians could enter the -- could answer that many questions. i thought they were supposed to answer one and shuffle off. he stood up there and answered a bunch of questions. he did not send his press secretary out to talk for him. i am not sure how long he will keep -- obama was keep -- answering questions, too.

it was kind of refreshing to see him keep answering questions. residents,ersey (202) 585-3883. we want to hear from you. timess the new york editorial. after chris christie's performance, through his 100 a 108te news conference, -- minute news conference, he said he knew nothing about the scheme and was blindsided by the news. he said it was the first time he saw e-mails showing how his aid es plotted to shut down traffic lanes to punish mayor mark sokolich. this version of reality does not add up. it is good news that the u.s. attorney for new jersey has opened an inquiry into the matter and can make certain all parties testify under oath. while the state assembly has done a good job of investigating

before lee scandal, it is important that the case be examined by a prosecutor's office. that is the new york times. max is calling from san jose, california. go ahead. governor listen to the -- i listened to the governor yesterday and everyone is saying he is answering questions and doing this and that, but if this was a traffic study, where is the study? isrybody is saying he answering questions, of course he has to answer questions. if this is genuinely a traffic study, where is the study? that is my comments. plainview, new york, republican line. caller: good morning. i feel there is a double standard. it is pretty obvious that,

wrong was seemingly done, they are trying to knock christie out-of-the-box so that he'll are -- knock christie out hillary cano that run unopposed. video that led to the killing of four americans in the investigation is going nowhere. the obama administration continually stonewalls and does not turn over evidence. our president seems to get the newspaper,v and the he knows nothing about any scandals, he knows nothing about his health care program. he didn't know that it wasn't going to work and supposedly the

wanted --orporation one of the executives was michelle obama's roommate. what is your point in time that together? caller: there is a double standard. the liberal media is trying to knock chris christie out of contention. damaged bridge is the name of the editorial in the washington post. this is how it is concluded. investigations need to proceed. not actubordinates did with his knowledge or approval, what did motivate them? can be answered satisfactorily, he may survive to carry the flag for the

center-right. if not, he will have to make way for someone else. it in theeps in, was itture in the office or was three or four people responsible? i suggest we wait and see. john says i do not like him, but this is a waste. why not get back to the irs and nsa? and stella says not a fan of chris christie, unlike the potus, he has taken responsibility and acted. radarmark says my bully things loudly. freelancer says politicians have a bad habit of confessing things that are not true. i am not a thief, i am not a which, now i am not a bully.

carroll says that the news interrogation made me a believer. if only obama would come out and take questions on his scandal. chris is calling on the independent line from indianapolis. that if there are four or six people involved, shouldn't they charge him with manslaughter for the woman's death? host: joining us now is new jersey state senator, raymond. you called this the biggest scandal in new jersey since ab scam. it involves corruption at the highest level. very importantly, as the previous caller just said, he recklessly endangered peoples lives. possibly criminally negligent homicide.

that is just the start of things. now we're seeing a massive cover-up. i do not believe governor christie has anything to do with the lane closures. forertainly set the tone the richard b chin against his -- retribution against his political opponents. when they concocted this phony traffic study cover-up, there is no doubt he was in the middle of it. there was no basis for a traffic study. that whole story had to go beyond people we have heard mentioned so far. there are redacted e-mails with people's names on it. we do not know whether the governor's name was on it or if the chief counsel was named. there are a lot of things involved in the cover-up. that could amount to of structured of justice. this is very serious. it will take a long time to get

down to the bottom of it. hearing the, we are governor's nominee for attorney general. he -- kevin o'-- dowd --he is a very good person. he has to be under oath. he was it right in the middle -- he was right in the middle of the phony traffic study. that is the next event that will bring out more information if he appears for confirmation. be at a statel senate hearing, is that correct? the judiciary be committee, of which i am a member. he has been nominated for attorney general. i support him. his named to know -- has not surfaced at all on this. yet, there is no doubt with the

phony traffic study explanation, he had to be in the middle of it. he will answer those questions under oath. host: are there any special hearings scheduled right now regarding this lane closure issue? guest: the assembly has been taking the lead. job're doing a great getting down to the bottom of it with these e-mails. the next step from their standpoint will be calling like this witnesses particularly person. person.et kelly but also to get the rate actions, which will reveal other information. how would you describe his

relationship with the state senate and assembly? guest: with the republicans, there is no relationship. they do what he says. they have been called bobbleheads. i think there is some positive fallout. governor is going to have to drop his presidential explorations and focus on the problems here. the republicans will be freed up. they have not participated in government throughout his administration. they marched to his orders. i was around when richard nixon said i am not a thief. that did notean ring true. he is a bully. that is the biggest fabrication of his -- he is very contrite. he sounded very sorrowful and almost tearful. when he said i am not a bully,

that belies everything he says. he is a bully create he takes pride in being a bully. he established his reputation on being a bully. people like the fact that he takes no prisoners. he was a politician that did not have to cater to anybody. he did not care about the affect of what he said. boosted his popularity. that is what people like. what he says -- when he says he am not a bully, i am sorry, you are. you have been and you cannot take that back. recognize thatow it is not a good way to be. maybe he can change. maybe we can work better relationships to get more things done. host: that is raymond lesniak who is a state senator in new jersey. thank you for your time. here are some other articles.

here is some capitol hill news. in politico, most of congress, millionaires. the majority are millionaires for the first time in history. that is according to a new analysis. least 268 of the 530 four current members have a net worth of more than $1 million. senator mark baggett, a democrat from alaska, missed a procedural vote on extending unemployment benefits to deliver it speech to a lobby group and why. he delivered a speech on wednesday morning at the american aviation issues conference. he also held two fundraisers. governor tothe

discuss alaska and hawaii issues. aide,ing to a begich they often work together on issues. he is a top target and will face a tight reelection battle this ly republicanheavi state. goodlatteo, bob pushes immigration solution. he says that he sees no reason why current on documented workers should not gain legal status as long as congress enacts tougher security and enforcement measures. interview,im a note he addressed -- and eight -- in interview, he said they should show how all of

the pieces of immigration reform they wouldogether. ultimately galvanize support among lawmakers. that is in politico this morning. hill, gates should have waited to publish his book. bob gates should have waited until president obama was out of office to publish his new book. steny hoyer said that this week. he was quick to praise the work and emphasize that he has a good personal relationship. argued that gates contradict himself in his assessment of obama. he makes an accurate charges on the biden and based timing, has created an falselyon false he -- that his motivations were political. he should have waited until the administration is over.

of ours during a taping newsmakers program on c-span. the entire program will air on sunday at 10:00. gates'book -- we will atlive with him next friday 6:30. ktv.org to findoo all of the information. he will be talking about his book. dean is calling from burke. democratic line. back to chris christie and what is going on there. give us your view. caller: thank you. good morning. that you have one party that is constantly on the liberal media. you have another party that cannot get over the fact -- the past as well.

the social media seems to be the driving force for many of these phone calls that we get. you have outlets that do not report the news anymore. you have facebook, twitter, things like that. you have some line that is posted up there that people do not do research on. they take it blankly as what was put out there. you hear over and over again. that seems to be the biggest scandal going on up there. there was a quote that you made earlier from rush limbaugh. he is even bashing the republicans. ien it comes down to that, think george costanza line about the worlds colliding -- i will leave it at that. host: that is dean in burke virginia. senator,jersey state who is a republican. what do you think about this?

guest: i think there are two parallel universes going on. thingsnately, these happen all too often. there are cases of corruption. is that the here nation is looking at this and we are betting him out potentially for being a future president. know how he response. you can help to compare him to the current president. you look at the current president, when he was facing challenges, whether benghazi or the rollout of obamacare or the some citizens did not agree with the philosophy of the administration. the president just said he did not know. governort this

yesterday and he took full culpability. he was responsibility -- responsible. he looked for a human when he was a humiliated. have never heard a public official say he was humiliated. that is chris. ist of his charm is that he not that empty suit type of politician. rush limbaugh said yesterday that republicans are not going out and supporting chris christie. what is the governor's relationship with state republicans and national republicans? i have been in the legislature for 12 years. i think he has done a world of good for new jersey and its citizens. when he came in, the system was broke. we had $2 billion of debt with the current budget. he managed to straighten all of that out.

he did it with a hostile legislature. you have to give him kudos. he managed to reach across party lines. he slices the bread. host: does this hurt his chances in 2016? guest: 2016 is a world away. he should be focused on new jersey. his second term -- i cannot answer that. state senator of new jersey, thank you for being with us. c-span will be covering that inaugural live. call, on the bridge lane closures, comes from bill in western virginia. just one second. if you are in new jersey, if you want to voice your thoughts,

there is a number for you. west virginia, go ahead. caller: i watched the situation play out. on tv, listened to it on the radio. thatis a systemic problem we have had throughout the united states with this political system. right now, it is almost like a civil war situation. the democrats are fighting the republicans. the republicans are fighting the democrats. a lot of these politicians will be voted out shortly. the thing that angered me the most is that i am a board and bread west virginia in. my wife is a born and bred new yorker. they said that this was part of a traffic study.

one person died from the situation. i wonder tommy emergency vehicles and school buses, how many emergency situations really needed to be taking care of while these people were sitting back and laughing about this. this is criminal behavior. host: bill in west virginia. representative frank pallone from new jersey tweets out that the administration action on the george washington bridge closure was deplorable and all involved must held accountable. the front page of the miami herald is a picture. castro, first public outing in almost one year. you can see that he is 87 years old. he looks a little older than he has in the past. is billemocrat line from mansfield, georgia. go ahead. caller: how are you?

i just wanted to say that the mayor needs to get with his emergency management team and figure out a way to get the people out of their, in case hillary's benghazi buddy come up over. they can ever make a plan. people backed up for four days with one lane. al qaeda would have a field day. host: bob in waldorf, maryland. independent line. governor christie apologized yesterday. what do you think? caller: i think i would like to see the media sit in front of obama for two hours and ask him questions as to why he assassinated american citizens overseas. what happened to their due process? i wonder how many people have died because of the health care debacle and have lost their health insurance.

died in aoldiers have guinness stand in the surge? host: i understand your point. go to trenton and talk about governor christie. you have had your say. now go to governor christie. what did you think of him yesterday? i think he showed obama how to deal with the situation. host: thank you very much. joseph is a democrat in houston, texas. listen, i think that governor christie has always demonstrated that type of attitude. , and theets angry media asked him a question, or someone at a town hall asks the question, he gets so angry. he said he was joking. he does not want to hear what

you have to say. he went to to leave him alone. that makes him a real bully. like -- the seem people listening are frightened of him. he gets by by throwing his weight around. i would like to know how do you defend the indefensible when you talk about somebody coming up to defend him? there is nothing you can defend. all right. thank you very much. , he posts on facebook showed integrity by his sincere apology. mistakes can be made, but how they are corrected is what counts. he did good and he did the right thing. others say abuse of power from the top to the lowest of the low.

lloyd says he is another morally bankrupt politician. those are some of the comments on our facebook page. we will continue that conversation at facebook.com/cspan. here's a little bit more from yesterday. [video clip] listen, everybody in the country who engages in politics knows that. on the other hand, that is very different from saying that someone is a bully. i have very heated discussions and arguments with people in my own party, and on the other side of the aisle. i feel passionately about issues. i do not hide my emotions from people. i am not a focus group tested, blowdried candidate for governor. that has always made some people

uneasy. some people like that style. some do not. i have always said, are you willing to change your style in order to appeal to a broader audience? i think i said no. i am who i am. i am not a bully. newspaper,the hill another potential gop candidate for president, senator rand paul. he makes a dig at governor christie. he says i know how angry i am when i'm in traffic. he said on thursday that he wonders who did this to me. the closure was a portly issued -- apparently issued by chris christie's administration. paul said i know how angry i am when i am stuck in traffic grid he has tangled with chris christie before.

that -- tweetsn in that obama had a news conference for over an hour before his christmas vacation. jersey girl tweets in that the right wing of session with president obama is astonishing. they cannot answer a question about chris christie without saying "obama." bonnie is in pennsylvania. are you a supporter of chris christie? caller: never. -- its not the first time is an established pattern. there are more than a few incidents. the one that comes to mind is a professor at rutgers university. he did not give him the political support. funds were cut from his program. it is an established pattern. he a narcissistic psychopath. he is an authoritative type.

some people like that type of leader. he is no leader. the first thing he did, he was a lawyer for a lobbyist group. what did he do? he badmouthed our teachers and told us they were lazy. they had to be gotten rid of. we got rid of 6000 teachers. that helps the situation here all whole lot. -- he is a bully. that is all he is. host: that was a call from new jersey. this is politico this morning. random house pushes the biography forward due to heavy media attention. they have tried to move ilesication on roger a forward by one week. mediaks at his career in and politics.

and the wall street journal this morning, opining on chris christie's news conference yesterday. here is their editorial. christie and the irs is how they header it. conference iness trenton, he was properly contrite, saying he had been lied to by a senior aide. he is withdrawing his support from his former campaign manager to run the state republican party. he had shown callous and indifferent behavior for the people inconvenienced by the traffic lane closures. if he did not know about this cheap exercise, nothing new him urges. the incident should not interfere with his presidential run. that does not mean that he should not learn from the experience. one lesson is that he is going to have to upgrade the quality of said visors.

-- his advisers. anyone who would attempt that is not ready for prime time. supposed to be a crack manager, but he surrounded himself with light weights and suffer for it. one of his selling points will be that he is an executive who has run a sizable state, so the media will descend on trenton even more than it did on wasilla, alaska. loyaliststhe hack now. that brings us to the obama administration, which quickly isked that the u.s. attorney investigating the lane closures as a criminal matter. that sure was fast and nights of eric holder's justice department to show its typical discretion when investigating political opponents. this is the same administration that won't tell congress what

resources it is devoting to the irs probe and appears to be slow rolling it. it also has doubled down by expanding the vetting of groups seeking tax exempt status. lerner took the fifth before congress and was allowed to call -- re-signed with the pension. resigned under pressure, but no other heads have rolled. we raised this mostly because our media friends have in in dismissing the irs abuses. the exception is the edward snowden theft of documents, which have exposed not one single example of lawbreaking.

long branch, new jersey. what do you think? caller: good morning. i never voted for him and never would. i do not like him and i do not trust him. the office is only three blocks from my house. i am a democrat. jon bon jovi for governor, how about that? anything over chris christie. everybody has a good day. the woman who is just on the phone with you, i don't remember -- host: that was cap the. today, only chris christie can answer what he did wrong. they write that if he was not such an effective governor and a popular presidential contender, this would not be a national story. such aid not have well-established reputation of bullying people who disagree lesshim, it would prompt

skepticism. there is no evidence that he knew about it, but it is harder to believe that his staff thought he would disapprove. the scandal could fade by the time -- he left himself no escape hatch if there is more to the story. that could disqualify a pragmatic governor. he gets things done andros bipartisan support. that would be a self-inflicted loss. and finally, dan is writing in the washington post -- a senior political writer -- a republican strategist with close ties to the establishment wing where christie has been strongest, said that the controversy has --sed reassessment of mung among those who considered him the strongest candidate. the reasons are twofold. first, the instinct to punish the mayor reflected bush league

thinking. he did not need the endorsement to win the election. helped toy no doubt ease that concern. the more important question is whether his contrition alternately is viewed as a genuine change in his otherwise aggressive posture or merely a short-term policy to get through this controversy. that is the washington post. robin arlington, virginia. what do you think about governor christie? caller: good morning to everyone current i guess the first thing i would say is on december 9, when he came out and said there is no political motivation, if he knew that there was political motivation. ue.n that is very obama-esq that is really horrible.

i think we should give him the benefit of the doubt. in port authority were saying that this is a traffic study. you are looking at a governor with a lot on his plate. he has one issue that pops up on the radar screen. he is told there is a traffic study. he says move forward. later, he finds out that this is politically motivated. he took action swiftly. peoplesay that when point to the right and say that they are obsessed with obama by bringing him up, it is not coming from a place of obsession. it is coming from a place of an interest in pointing out glaring hypocrisy. in the obama white house, you have scandal after scandal. the media gives him a free pass. the minute a republican governor has one thing that looks like it has any whiff of anything, they

are all over it. kind of glaring hypocrisy of something we should all look at. we should all acknowledge it to be honest. this is scandal ridden. we should look at that and talk about it. see obama for what he is, a chicago politician. chris christie will continue to be a great governor. i do not know that that means he is a great president. host: that is robin arlington, virginia. now chris, an independent in eugene, oregon. caller: we need to realize that it has only been 48 hours. there has to be an investigation to find out what was known and what is going to happen. the thing that i take away listening to everybody is, unfortunately, the gentleman before me was talking about how everybody likes to talk about obama.

that is not the subject that we are talking about today. the subject today is chris christie. whether he knew or not about what was going on with his top aides. it seems to me that it is a common tactic, whether the wall street journal, which is and thean leaning, republicans who are calling in, to automatically go after obama. every president seems to have their problems. some of them do need to be investigated. obviously, we are talking about chris christie and his involvement in this issue. i think that time will tell. we need to get the media to catch up to this. host: finally, this from the washington times. he skied from a traffic jam is how they entitle it.

mr. christie says he was embarrassed and he million it, as he should have been. absent a smoking gun, we will take him at his word grid his reluctant was never in doubt. his reelection was never in doubt. this will not make the slightest difference. democrats think they smell blood in the hudson river. time for a federal grand jury tom a tweeted state senator ray lesniak. separately, justice department prosecutors are looking into the matter. they're conveniently silent about the accumulating obama scandals. if it weren't for double standards, some democrats would have no standards at all. hour and thenre the house will come into session. we will spend the next hour with

ler, a professor at georgetown university. he is also the author of a book called "let's get free." >> it is disappointing to all of us to see the deterioration of security inside iraq. i have spent a lot of my life over there. 2010, i wasto there as we continue to reduce the level of violence. i believe we left it in a place where it was capable to move forward. we have seen several political issues, internal to a rack. -- iraq. it is in my mind concerning. this is not just about iraq. it is something that we have to

because ms. and of across the middle east. what is going on in syria and lebanon? what is going on inside of iraq. potential,ectarian building of conflict between sunni and shiite. that --oyd tatian of the exploitation of that by al qaeda and other organizations. >> this weekend, army chief of no looks at the situation in the mideast. that is saturday at 10:00. mary matalinn 2, on james carville. prohibitionn 3, and the rise of the gangster. sunday morning at 10:00. i think that there is a way in which we have set up this impossible series of

expectations, especially for the president. for elected officials up a whole, they're going to come in and save the day. when it does not happen, we give congress a nine percent approval rating and so the president a 39% approval rating. expectations have to be lowered. what is amazing about the american founding, is not just that the founders themselves have said do not expect much. -- governmentrnor will not be the main driver of liberty. it will be civil society. if the government does not do things well, nothing else will be properly situated. the main area of activity is going to be in the private sphere. the civil society. in the election of local officers, and to the carrying out of duties at the local and state levels, there is a measure thatdesty. of recognizing

it is not possible for people from washington to run a nation of 310 million people. on humility. sunday night at 8:00 on c-span q&a. >> "washington journal" continues. host: i want to introduce you to paul butler. he is a professor at georgetown university. term policer the state, what do you think. is the u.s. a police state? guest: a lot of communities with think so. we have one african american president in one million african-american people in prison. the u.s. has five percent of the worlds population and 25% of the world inmates.

we do not need that many people in prison to keep us safe. there are a lot of people from all over the political spectrum who have concerns. if you are a civil libertarian, you think the government has way too much power. if you are a fiscal conservative, you do not think it is cost effective to spend $25,000 per year, multiply that by the people in prison. think what you could do with that money. we could use it for health care or jobs training or to improve public schools. faith-based conservatives think that people deserve a second chance. when you look at how long the sentences are, way longer than any other country. a lot of us think that we can do this better. we could still be safe and spend less money and we could make our communities whole. host: how did we get to the point that we have that many people in prison? guest: it is politics, mainly.

it does not have to do with the crime rate. when crime goes up, we lock more people up. when the crime rate goes down, we lock more people out. when the crime rate stays the same, we lock more people up. of policyresult incentives for the police to arrest more folks. they get more money from the federal government. it is also about the war on drugs. we are seeing this in places like colorado and washington. treatment works for tribune -- drug users who become addicts. we really need to tax and regulate that. the war on drugs and these very harsh draconian sentences for every crime have gotten us into the state. host: it is mainly drug laws? guest: drug laws is one big component. if we started using treatment rather than punishment -- if we

thought it was a public health issue and not an issue that we can arrest and punish our way out of, we would have more responsible policies. we would still have a lot of people in prison. start being smart on crime, rather than tough on crime. ask ourselves whether the struck only in sentences for every sentencesrack only in for every crime -- draconian crime arefor every right. we do not need big brother looking over our shoulders. host: in your book, you write that what you're not saying is that prison should be abolished and people should not be held accountable. you do not believe that people -- you do not believe that. -- you do not

believe the society needs a way to punish the bad guys. if someone did the unthinkable, killed my love one, i would kill him myself. systemminal justice gives a monopoly on that kind of retribution. it is legal hate. i am a former prosecutor. i became a prosecutor because i was the nerdy kid who got my lunch money stolen when i was going to school in chicago. i did not like bullies. it, as i hopemake i do, i will try to make a difference for my community. the way that i thought i could make a difference was to go in from the inside. i knew the prosecutors had issues and worked a lot with police. the police were not always my friends. i thought i could go in as this undercover person and make a

difference that way. maybe i could police a few people. i'm also concerned about people who are victims of fraud. i remember that my mom was driving up to our house and some guys robbed her and her car. after that, she was afraid to go inside the house. home, theyshe got had to watch her go inside the house. when folks are concerned about criminal justice reform, about it is because we do care about victims. not just the people who are going to prison. we want to make it safer people in the streets of hilum -- harlem. the way to do that is to stop locking up so many people. when you lock up 2.5 million people, a lot of the folks who are there are kids. they are nonviolent drug offenders. they are not nemesis to society.

when you lock someone up for five years with thugs, he comes out worse. he is not better. start sending him to finishing school. the way to get our community safer is to stop these sentences and and the failed war on drugs. int: you write that to live a free countries is to tolerate a minimum level of risk. we need to stop being so afraid. what do you say to your mom if she cannot walk into her house? guest: i say do you feel safe in this area now? we're locking up all these people. if you ask kids in chicago, they would say no. they are scared to walk to school every morning. clearly, locking up so many people is the way that we have been dealing with this problem. it does not work.

we have to look at what makes people at risk for committing violent crimes. we know a lot of this. you cannot separate them from the schools. that is why we're are so delighted to hear the president and the secretary of education talking about the school to prison pipeline. they understand that there is a connection between segregated, inferior, failing schools. myth thathis urban planners look at the number of black boys in third grade or it on that basis, they determine how may prisons they will need in 20 years. that is not true. it is one of the lies that gives us the truth. you can look and see what kids are messing up. what kids are not doing well. if we can do interventions and get them the kind of services that they need, at an early age, we would not have so many folks in prison.

so many folks like my mom are afraid to walk in their own neighborhoods. host: how did you get from the southside of chicago to yale, harvard, prosecutor and defendant? guest: shout out to my mom. she is the most important reason. shout out to the jesuits. i teach at georgetown. i also went to a jesuits: chicago. that got me steered in the right way. there's not anything different about me. i ended up at yale. some of my brothers, who i grew up with, and it up in jail. not literal brothers. they were not different from maine. i got some lucky great. -- rakes. i had a mom who had gone to college. she knew the importance of education. i have the services that i need. the important thing is that if we could get other kids, including men and women in

chicago who are in dire straits now, if we could get them the same quality education that i had, they could end up in college and law school and here on c-span. host: harvard law. and then prosecutor. guest: i work for a judge for one year. thisw school, i was brother who no one thought would be a prosecutor. they would have predicted i would've worked for a civil rights organization or for legal aid. the 90's, you could see this massive human rights issue coming. by massive human rights issue, i mean how many young black men were being punched. i knew both sides. i became a prosecutor because i hated bullies. i also stopped being a prosecutor because i hated bullies. every day, i would set up in the

courtroom and say, ladies and gentlemen, i am paul butler and i represent the united states. i would use that awesome power to put black men in prison. in d c we call it a chocolate city. most of the jurors were african-american. these men and women would be met mewhen i said -- beam at when i said i represented the united states. like, you make us proud. i didn't know if i should lock up summoning people. especially when it did not seem to make a difference. i stopped being a prosecutor also because i hated bullies. i had all of this power, but i was using it against people who were basically pawns in a criminal justice system that had spun out of control. host: does the prosecutor side have too much power? guest: they have way too much

power. there is a supreme court case in which the prosecutor offered a plea bargain to the sky. it was a drug case. they said if you plead guilty, we will ask for five years. use your constitutional right to go to trial and lose, we will throw the book at yale and go for life in prison. the guy thought, i have a constitutional right to a jury trial. i am innocent and i will take my chances. he lost and got life in prison. he goes to the supreme court. there is no way this can be fair. they give me either five years or life. the supreme court says that is constitutional. that is what prop -- prosecutors do. that is why 97% of folks plead guilty. they are scared to go to trial. if they lose, the cost is too high. the u.s. has five percent of the world population.

25% of its prisoners. people in65% more u.s. prisons than in the u.s. military. california has more prisoners than france, great britain, germany, japan -- in baltimore, the population is 615,000. 115,000 people were arrested and one year. you can be sentenced to life imprisonment for a nonviolent marijuana offense. by 2011, the number of americans under criminal justice supervision will be nearly 8 million. in the u.s., one new person or jail opens every week. news is thatod we're getting better. and the last couple of years, we are locking up your people. we are locking up your african americans. slow gradual decline.

to where the other industrialized nations are, back to where we were, you have to let hundreds of thousands of people out of prison. we could do that. likeve sane jurisdictions california and new york actually let folks out. decreasingelligently their prison populations. crime went down. again, this is a former prosecutor in me. i want folks to be safe. i want people to be secure. part of the way that we do that is to get smart on crime. host: one of the stories that he tells is about his own arrest. if you want to hear about that, you can pick up the book. you can read about his own arrest and how that affected him. that politics plays a role in who prosecutors charged

with crimes. about thisyone knows crack cocaine sentencing disparity. it used to be that you got the same punishment for one unit of crack cocaine that you got for 100 units of powder cocaine. chemically, they are indistinguishable. the way you make crack cocaine is to get powder and baking soda. you put it in the microwave. why is there so much more punishment for crack? not because it is more dangerous. we do not know that. the senate has this hearing -- the house had a hearing where a basketball player was drafted by the celtics. he died. they thought because he was black that it was cracked. the speaker of the house said i will make this my issue. folks should get more punishment for crack grid it should be

25-1. republican said it is our issue. 50-1. it was bid up to 100-1. there were no hearings on whether it is more dangerous. there were no serious about the about the theories effects of this kind of law. that is how policies are made. host: paul butler is our guest. the phone numbers are on your screen, divided by political affiliation. if you would like to get in the conversation, dial in now. if you have experience with the u.s. justice system, we would like to hear from you. we began with a call from paul in mississippi. you are on the air. go ahead. caller: good morning. -- governorto say

chris christie was probably bullied all of his life. not, there is a big thing on getting rid of bullies in high school. why do we put up with bullies and the political system? host: that was paul in mississippi. what about bullies? guest: we have to be smart about the way that we deal with issues in high school. one concern now is that these safety threats to school -- we respond by putting police officers in schools. what used to be things that we got sent to the principal's office for, now you get arrested for. it is not everybody. it is mainly african-american kids and kids with disabilities. this is one of the things that the attorney general pointed out yesterday. when the only tool that you have -- when the only

tool you have is arresting folks, every problem looks like a crime. bullying is a big issue. we have to be careful about how we deal with folks. you have to understand that there are better ways than locking them up to deal with those issues. host: carlos is calling on the republican line. caller: hello. thank you. -- iconcerned about status know a young man who is graduating from college. they made a lot of noise and smoke a little grass. there was a single shot wendy to in the house. he cannot get a job for the rest of his life. if you get one arrest for something and you are innocent, you can never get a job.

you can never get a situation with benefits. these 40 million people that do not have benefits are felons. population15% of the who have no economic status. this comes from the slaughterhouse cases. -- they arecourt 100 years behind the times. thank you. host: paul butler. guest: one of the unfortunate things about locking so many people up is that when they come out, they have records. as a consequence of these records, sometimes they cannot vote. they cannot serve on juries. they cannot participate in civil society. they cannot even support themselves often. guy, but progressive if i was the manager at the

local coffee house and i had the choice between hiring a fresh faced kid from junior college or some guy who had a 10 year gap because he served time, i would be tempted to go with the college kid. we can imagine how difficult it is for folks coming out. especially when we put all of these legal disabilities. nate, jobs, and housing. if they get those services, they will get out of this system that we have. half of the folks who get out are going to be right back in jail. that is not good for anybody. host: a file clerk tweets in, what do you think of the current apartment of justice? are they working enough to change the system? guest: i am very excited by air colder. he has been one of the most active persons in the obama administration.

he is one of the rare prosecutors who does not use his to send folksely to prison for as long as he can. i am excited by some of his initiatives. including telling prosecutors to go easy on certain kinds of nonviolent drug cases. lots of attorney general's have and insisting on mr. crony plea bargains. they require their lawyers to throw the book at prosecutors. that weder understands do not always have a problem with too much crime. we have a problem with too much punishment. that in somes communities, it is not only punishment has done the same thing. we have all of these folks come especially women and kids, who do time on the outside.

it is important and powerful to have a chief law enforcement officer who understands that we have to have some integrity. even a bit of grace. on thes that sign department of justice that the government wins its case whenever justice is done. he understands that it is not always about conviction. sometimes doing justice is doing something other than just fighting for someone getting locked up. int: an individual tweets that the federal government and bill of rights are designed to protect the individual from government bullying. anyway to return to the? guest: the supreme court has -- that ball is in their court. i have a friend here in d.c. who is a police officer. let me tell you about this game that he plays. --n i go on a ride along

it is called pick a car. it is designed to show how much power he has. he says, pick any car you want, paul, and i will stop it. i will go for a lexus or a mercedes. he is a good cop. he only stops if he has a reason. but everybody -- you can go two --cks without committing in a traffic offense. if you are black, you get the pat down and spread eagle and the whole thing. but he is confident with that power because he uses it in a fairway. if we look at how the supreme court has interpreted the building rights, the fourth amendment, a lot of people would say that my friend, the power he has as a cop to stop anybody that you want is inconsistent

with what the framers of the bill is right intended. -- the bill of rights intended. the title ofiscuss the book. it is erica baidu saying to her druggie boyfriend about what are you going to do when they come for you? i guess i will see you in the next lifetime. it is this idea of being laid down in tracks about how the criminal justice system really works. it is ground-level reporting of what chuck d called the black

cnn to make people safety -- safer without locking up so many folks. when i started teaching criminal at the same time i was listening to hip-hop, which i grew up and i heard these them.sations between i wanted to get them talking to each other. that is one of the reasons i wrote this book. they say, you should write about what you know. i said, nobody understands criminal justice philosophy, how it really works in the street. that has been my experience as a prosecutor, and as a black man, like i do. that is why i wrote the book. host: here is a tweet.

guest: there are some crimes that african-americans commit disproportionately, and it is a big issue. makeve to work on ways to folks who are at risk of violent appropriates have interventions. i'm not one of these folks who says that nobody, including black people,, belongs in prison. i'm very concerned about victims. segregated in this country. for white people, you are more likely to be victimized by a white person. but there are drug laws that are law enforcement against african-americans. i teach on college campuses. i know that lots of kids out there are indulging.

and according to the government, the national institute of health, blackstone use drugs more than anybody else. but if you go down the street to the department of justice asked blacks don't use drugs more than anybody else. but if you go down to the street to the department of justice, they are 60% of the people that do the time. been wageddrugs has in in unfair and biased way. host: the report for december has just come out. the unemployment rate has dropped to 6.7%. 74,000 jobs added in the month of december. can you correlate prison incarceration and crimes with economics? guest: it is not a perfect correlation. almost always, the african- american unemployment rate is about twice that of the overall rate. but obviously, there are connections. folks think that if you listen

to some of those rappers, they --nk you are going to be you're going to have all those gold chains. drugs,ail sellers of they make about the minimum wage, and it is dangerous work. for those works that -- those folks that get jobs that pay living wages, they would love to get off the street. you don't have to have a college degree. you don't have to have gone to an ivy league school to get out of risk of going to prison. all you have to do is graduate from high school. some extremely important intervention here, to have ways to help our young men and women graduate from high school. if they get that high school degree, their chances of getting locked up dramatically decrease. call for professor paul butler comes from becky and stan, michigan.

-- in stanton, michigan. caller: good morning. this is an issue that has been bothering me for years and years. and i'myears old now really thankful that things are a little better, but they are not better enough. personally -- not a lot, you know, my daughter has dated some black boys. andways make them sit down answer all my silly questions. [laughs] i asked them first. what do you ask them? caller: i ask them about issues like this. you know, is it true that you get pulled over just for being black? and the one boy told me that when he goes to pick up a date,

.he drives he doesn't dare drive, because he got stopped once. he didn't have anything in the .ar or, you know these are the same people that have just said, officer, can you please tell it what i've done, and they get accused of harassing a policeman. host: i think we have enough to work with there. professor butler? guest: so many young black men have stories like that. pre-much, everyone -- pretty much, everyone. and in some areas like new york city, it is even worse. there has been a lot of 10 -- attention paid to the stop and frisk policy by police here. the effect on young black and

latino men of the constant negative attention by police is corrosive. it ends up making a lot of folks literally hate the police. they have some of the most dangerous jobs in the world. you could not pay me a million dollars to do what they do, because i'm not that brave. but we really don't want folks hating the members of the community we are supposed to protect -- who are supposed to protect and serve. but the police grab you and touch her body, and it makes you feel small, like you have no --ht, like the government and it is not only a human rights issue, but it is a public safety issue. they go from one place to another place talking to folks.

if you are scared you're going to be stopped for no reason you are not likely to cooperate with the police. you are not going to want to help them because you are scared of them and you really don't like them. when we asked elyse to be respectful of citizens and to treat them nicer, and not to stop people just because -- when we asked elyse to be respectful of citizens and to treat them nicer, and not to stop evil just because you are black, that helps to make communities safer. hans in massachusetts. good morning. caller: thank you for taking my call. congratulations on the book. i've actually been using it in the last couple of years in an economics course that i teach. guest: thank you. host: explain that. the comments that have

been made, let's see if we can deepen them. in areas like detroit and cleveland and elsewhere, the economic conditions are such that it is depression like circumstances, 30% unemployment. those conditions are playing into the criminal behavior that we have a cousin of the lack of opportunities. and professor butler mentioned education is important. although we can appreciate attorney general holder and what he understands and so on and so , we are still going to have the same problems emerge over and over. and as to your books subtitle, you already interest --

addressed it in an interesting talk about you could your experience, especially jury notification. the economic piece is so important. in new york city, they have these blocks that are called million-dollar blocks, because if you look at just how much money the government is spending on this one block to lock folks up, it's $1 million. a lot of people say, what if we spend that money on job training, on improving schools, to provide people with treatment when they have problems with drugs? would not go a lot further than just spending the money to lock people up? urban economics, absolutely. because there is an economic cost, a huge cost, to locking up 2.5 million people come a big

opportunity cost. i do have a chapter in the book about this concept called and jury notification. that is an idea that i learned about as a prosecutor from the jurors and the district of columbia. most of the jurors at this time were african-american, and i got schooled by the experienced prosecutors when i was a rookie. if i had a drug case and the defendant was a young black man and it was a nonviolent drug case, the jurors were not going to send that boy to jail, no matter how well i prove my case. the reason was, they didn't want to send another black man to prison. if you go to superior court, criminal court in d.c. today, just like back then, you would think that white people don't commit crimes, why people don't use drugs, they don't get into fights, they don't steal from their offices. because they are utterly absent from criminal court in d.c. and a lot of the jurors knew that is not really how the world

works. the way they were protesting that was when he was a nonviolent, victimless crime, like a drug offense, sometimes they would quit. a law professor, that was the first have wanted to study. they found out that what were doing acquitting people, because they didn't like the law or thought that the law was unfairly applied, that is actually a constitutional power that jurors have. it was part of this system of checks and balances that the framers set up. they were scared to death of a government that had gotten too powerful, too out of control. based on their experience with the british crown. they wanted ordinary student citizens toinary have a say about whether someone gets locked up. controversial,he provocative chapter of the book. i want to let folks know what i

think about this idea. for some nonviolent drug offenders, even if you think they are guilty, you can use your power to just say no to this failed war on drugs. you don't have to lock up everybody just because the prosecutor tells you you do. at the metro stop where jurors get off, there is a song that can liesyou think you locking up too many people for nonviolent offenses, for drug crimes, then vote no if you are a juror. i am a former prosecutor and a lot of people don't like that. but i think what of the reasons is that -- reasons that it's ok is that jurors have good sense. that a jury would acquit a murderer or rapist if they thought that he did it. reasonable doubt,

they would acquit. but for lots of these young people that are getting caught up in his criminal justice system for making dumb mistakes, sometimes jurors are willing to give them a second chance. host: next call for paul butler comes from george in baltimore. george, good morning. morning, professor. i was calling because earlier caseere talking about the of being arrested in baltimore. i live in baltimore. you've probably noticed that some people don't ever really leave. some people don't go to different states, different cities. all they know is what they see here. what you are talking about, about police things, things of that nature, a lot of times here, people fear the police, or they have a certain distaste for and that is because of the powers that you were saying given to your friend, they just abuse it.

you lock me up today for just hanging out with my friends. a call at loring. you can stand on the corner of a neighborhood. -- they call it loitering. you can stand on the corner of a neighborhood. and then you build up a record and then i come before someone like you and they try to give me three years, four years. you have to just take it. you don't have money to really fight the case. you get a public defender who will not really support you like you need. takehen you have to either this two years, or take probation, which is still a conviction. it is crazy here in baltimore. george, are you talking from personal experience? , and: personal experiences friends. i've been arrested for things -- like loitering. i got arrested for trespassing in my neighborhood just because it was a gated community.

it was not a gated community that i had to enter a password. i walked through. i parked my car and walked when i came back through i got arrested. places like this where there -- not in new york or california. our small voices need to be heard. host: george, thank you. paul butler e guest: if you watch -- paul butler? guest: if you watch shows like see his, you can experience. i heard the pain in that young man's voice. one of the ways you can make them safe is to have a good relationship with the police. one of the earlier collars mentioned the concern about

snitching that we here in hip- hop. , thatctually started movement against snitching, started in baltimore. it is this issue of harming people that get arrested. the police were going to folks and because people weren't willing to talk to them voluntarily, they were saying, if you help me make a case against her neighbor, then i'm going to give you a break in your case. if you tell me what joe is doing, then maybe for your case, you will not have to serve some much time. and that was an incentive for a lot of folks to lie about your neighbors. every family in baltimore has someone who's caught up in the system. one of the concerns about snitching is that it leads to inaccurate testimony. o'neill is calling from brooklyn. go ahead. .aller: good morning

the law became interesting to me in new york. before i went to africa, i was arrested twice. and since then, i am in the eastern district of new york. if not the constitution, what do african people go by ? because the dred scott case that i've been reading says that the constitution doesn't apply to africans. i am going to go buy your book.

what i saw in africa, i know it is not just an american issue. it is a global issue. i'm pretty sure you have first- hand experience in terms of your prosecution work and you came out of that to educate those that need assistance. ist: did you say your case pro se? se, currentlyro in the eastern district of new york. doesn'that means he have a lawyer. i cannot give legal advice other than to say it is always a good idea to have a lawyer. if it is a criminal case, you have the constitutional right to a lawyer. that dredould know scott has been overruled by the supreme court. constitution absolutely applies to african-americans, including the fourth american -- fourth amendment that says they

cannot be stopped for no reason. and the fifth -- the sixth amendment, which says that if you cannot afford a lawyer, the government will provide a lawyer for you in a criminal case. stoppedt if he has been for stop and frisk or for search, is that a criminal case? guest: no, that is how the police make criminal cases. literally 99% of folks who get especially young black men in new york, the police are not able to make a case. they have not committed any crime. if he is concerned about that, there is a lot of effort underway to address that issue. there is a civil case in new that case,s in including a young black medical student who had been stopped many times by the police for no reason. and they won.

that is good news. the united states constitution absolutely applies to african- americans. he is certainly entitled to bring his case for individual relief, but there is also an important community social justice movement to make the police more accountable. host: you are writing a second book. guest: i am. one of the things i'm looking at is his relationship between the police and black masculinity. part of what stop and frisk was about was degradation. it was almost about sexual harassment if you look at the way folks were touched. a lot of people experience it as an invasion of your body. black masculinity is something some folks find threatening in the united states. the caller is right, there are some crimes that african- american men do commit disproportionately, especially violent crimes. ist my next book is about

about black masculinity and its relationship to criminal justice. host: david, inglewood, new jersey, you're on the line with georgetown professor, paul butler. caller: i have two questions in one quick statement. is, it is so easy for people to talk about -- like the professor talking about all of these people being let go. i grew up in chicago right near saint ignatius. i grew up on the south side of chicago. it is so easy for him to talk about letting these people out of jail, but they are not going .o go into his neighborhood i think he would have a different view if they were right around the corner from him. the second thing is, part of the , people like him, liberals, never want people to so they arechools,

all against school vouchers. which would give people the opportunity to go to the kind of school that he went to. i'm very familiar with that school. my last is a statement. problem of the whole with black crime and the problems and economic woes is the breakdown of the family. down andally broken there are no fathers in these households, even where i grew up , and i'm 58 years old. everybody, from the worst people in the neighborhood to the snowe who were like driven , no fathers in the house. and now there are no fathers in his household and the liberals keep ignoring the 800 pound gorilla in the room. host: david, are you african- american? caller: yes. guest: it is not like the

fathers disappeared, they went somewhere. and a lot of them went to prison. it is true if you have a two parent household, you're much less likely to go to prison than if you only have one parent in the house. that is another reason why we have to be smarter on crime and think carefully about whether it makes sense to lock up all of these people who are parents. about 60% of people in prison, men and women, do have kids. one of the things that makes kids at risk of going to prison themselves is having a parent in prison. it is a vicious cycle, and the caller is absolutely right that schools make a difference. we want every kid to have the opportunity to go to a great school, like i went to, and like david went to. and again, he's right that it is all related. when we talk about human rights issues and civil rights issues, we are also talking about prison stoptions, ways to have to

so many people making it to prison. a lot of this is through schools. is aboutargue that it privatizing education, by vouchers, but all of that is outside my area of expertise. i do know that great schools will present -- prevent many kids from ending up in jail. aheadshawn, please go with your question or comment for paul butler. caller: i am from baltimore, maryland. i'm a recovering addict. forve abstain from drugs the past 20 years, and i have found it difficult to navigate my way through corporate society . i have worked for ups for 15 years. i wanted to speak to you about how african-americans commit more crimes. based on the statistics that were reported.

during my time, i was trying to create a record for african american employees as opposed to providing them with no incidents. it created an easier outlet to fire or get rid of these employees. my question is, in today's society, how do you create an environment where you can actually get these men back in? we have a group here in baltimore, called mobile men of action, and we are trying to create some kind of liaison with the baltimore government to help ex offenders get back into work and create economic development. i'm also an economic development student.

shawn sound like a real success story. he is someone who had did his time -- who did his time and came out and he was actually able to improve his life. more power to you, sean. in terms of policies that help people, other folks have those outcomes. folks can get jobs when they come out. and that is something where the president can make a difference. are thinking about african- american unemployment now, how it is persistently twice what white and employment is. one big reason for that is that lots of african-american folks have records. if you are targeted in your incentives to employers to hire people to take a chance -- and it is not much of a chance, because the people have a good job with a living wage, they will be doing the right thing. they will be motivated, like that caller is, to turn around their lives.

we hope in this recovery that people like sean are not left out. interestedld be very -- thomas jefferson eight tweets this in. i will be very interested in hearing your opinion of the trayvon martin case. guest: i was disappointed in the verdict, i said i think -- as i think a lot of of african americans were. the idea is that there could be this big guy was basically stocking this skinny black teenager who doesn't have a this skinnylking black teenager who doesn't have a weapon. the big guy has begun. they get into it -- has a gun. they get into a fight and he gets off on self-defense. i think that made a lot of folks have doubts about our criminal justice system and whether it really respectful lives of all of our citizens. respects the lives of all of our citizens. one of your callers engine

earlier the dred scott case, that the black man has no rights that the white man is bound to respect. the trayvon martin -- really, the george zimmerman case -- made some people feel like that, like african american lives don't mean as much as other people. host: we have been talking to paul butler, a law professor at georgetown, a graduate of yale and harvard. called "let's get free: a hip-hop theory of justice" and on booktv in about two or three weeks you will see a longer profile interview with professor butler airing on the network. watch for it on c-span2. the house is now in session. let us pray. loving and gracious god, we give you thanks for giving us